Friday, July 17, 2009

It is your place to say it, Greg, but you're wrong.

I started writing this post as a comment and soon realized that it was far more appropriate as a post in itself. Greg is rather fucking angry about all this blog violence and infighting. Indeed, he is prepared to stick his angry boot up someones ass so far that they'll need a shoe-shine rag to brush their teeth, if they tell him that it's not his place to say what he said...

Of course it's your place to point this out - it's your fucking blog. For that matter, this is your place to comment on it too. However, I don't agree with you...Or more to the point I do, but not everyone who agrees with us on one or more of those issues, agrees with us on all of them. And therein lies the problem and the point I was trying to make to Volcanoman on that other post.

As an atheist, I am willing to accept that atheists who have what I see as reprehensible moral frames, also happen to have a common enemy with me. Honestly, common enemy or not, there are those in that group who I just flat refuse to ally myself with - which is rare for me. As an environmentalist, I accept that there are even some pretty hardcore fundamentalist theists who also happen to be ardent environmentalists - and again, there are those among them who I just can't in good conscience ally myself with.

I could go on and on - for every issue you raise, there are people who agree with us on that issue, while fervently disagreeing on others. Excepting extremists, I am happy to ally myself to those people on those specific issues, while accepting that on other issues, they are my enemies. But given that there are those in each of those groups who are my enemies, it stands to reason there will be some infighting - or outfighting within the group might be more accurate.

And then there are those with whom I have fundamental differences with, when it comes to tactics. Like Chris - you know, that dude who just came out with a book coauthored with a awesome marine biologist. He doesn't see a lot of utility in trying to convince theists to abandon theism, believing it far more important to convince them that there isn't an inherent between accepting science while being a theist. While I have no problem with making the latter point clear, I will not - absolutely will not allow that point to interfere with my fundamental belief that theism is poison - no matter what type or extreme that theism takes.

Nor am I going to play nice about it - something that many atheists believe is counterintuitive. I believe that it is a good thing for people who aren't comfortable with the sort of rhetoric I occasionally am prone to not to engage in it, but I also think it's a good thing for people who are to do so and I think it's a good idea for people who have some other way of going about it to do things their way.

But most importantly and why I categorically reject your premise, is that this very discussion is a good, incredibly positive thing. This "infighting" you are objecting to - this is exactly what drove me to where I am now. I've been engaging in this argument for about six years now and my position on it, as well as my personal religious beliefs are almost in perfect polar opposition to what they were when I first engaged in it.

I am not alone, or in any way unique.

There are a lot more people reading this stuff, including these discussions, than there are people commenting on it. Hell, with my tiny traffic blog, I get emails from people who just aren't comfortable commenting. The other post garnered me four emails from people who just wanted to tell me they appreciated my comments to Volcanoman (one also mentioned the other person I was arguing with). You get a lot of traffic and I imagine that it's only a tiny fraction of that traffic that ever responds.

It is important for people to see and understand that atheists aren't some homogeneous group of people. It is important for people to understand that the thing that makes us atheists, is a lack of religious belief - and nothing else - absolutely nothing else. Sure, there are a lot of things that many, maybe even most atheists would agree on. But that has nothing to do with us being atheists - it just means that we happen to have other shared values.

And this discussion does more than show people what atheists are and aren't. It also exposes them to arguments about the nature of religion and magical thinking - arguments that they may never hear anywhere else. It shows them that a) not all atheists are angry and/or b) that some atheists are - both of which are valid and valuable points to theists or those who simply don't identify as atheists, though their actual beliefs may qualify.

14 comments:

D. C. said...

Stakes in the ground. Getting hard to dance around this field.

DuWayne, I wonder how much of this is a matter of tactical vs. inclusive approaches?

For myself, when I'm making an alliance of convenience to advance something I consider important I keep the contact with my allies focussed. That has the disadvantage of missing chances to advance other goals, but it also keeps the alliance as strong as possible towards the goals I've joined the alliance for.

In other words, if I'm trying to get a dude from Chicago elected President I just won't discuss the Cubs. Not gonna, sorry, end of topic.

This is sometimes difficult when I'm working with someone who is a True Cubs Fan and can't help spraying his irrationality all over.

Ah, well, we all have our diamonds to bear.

Stephanie Zvan said...

Just for the record, Greg doesn't wear boots, at least not in my recollection. Tennies all the way.

DuWayne Brayton said...

Oh, I am so with you on keeping things focused, it's the only way to be. When I was a more active activist, I learned quickly that protests really needed to be kept in sharp focus, that you couldn't - simply could not allow other issues in, no matter how much you> might agree with them. Because doing so can easily lose more bodies in the crowd, than refusing to will.

I do think that a more apt analogy for my underlying point though, would be along the lines of, it's hard to work together to improve the sport of baseaball, if I'm a die-hard Cubs fan and you're a die-hard Lions fan - somewhere along the line, it is just going to get ugly, in spite of us both (hypothetically) being baseball fans.

Stephanie -

I was envisioning Greg the mighty archeologist, in his badass motherfucking boots!!!11!111

Stephanie Zvan said...

"No boots."

D. C. said...

Dang it, Stephanie, you beat me to it and ruined a perfectly good comment.

DuWayne, it might be different were Greg working in my neighborhood. 'Tain't so, though. In his field, the ability to run outweighs pretty much anything else.

Stephanie Zvan said...

D. C., it's so nice to know I'm not the only person on the internet with a memory. I wonder sometimes. More in times like these.

DuWayne Brayton said...

Gahh, I actually do remember that - did before I even clicked the link...

Keep in mind please, that I have smoked not only my fair share of cannabis over the years, but also the fair shares of several other people...

D. C. said...

D. C., it's so nice to know I'm not the only person on the internet with a memory. I wonder sometimes. More in times like these.

As long as we're going to be cursed, at least there are others who have the same curse.

D. C. said...

Keep in mind please, that I have smoked not only my fair share of cannabis over the years, but also the fair shares of several other people...

Interesting way to keep your stash: in your (soon to be ex-) acquaintances.

Kind of the "Hannibal Lechter School of Dope Processing." Pun intended. Which leads to some very interesting variations on Alice B. Toklas.

Juniper Shoemaker said...

Greg is rather fucking angry about all this blog violence and infighting

Lately, the "infighting" distresses me. I don't enjoy it.

For example, I particularly don't enjoy the present skirmish between ERV and Dr. Isis. I'm generally a bigger fan of Dr. Isis. (This was true in the beginning, and it's true now.) However, I've eagerly read both women's blogs since shortly after I established my own last year. I think ERV was mostly right in her defense of PZ against misrepresentation and disloyalty. ERV also writes kick-ass virology posts. So damned if I'm going to choose sides in what has escalated from a discussion of "accommodationism" into a clique war! I understand why it's happening-- but, still. Not another moment. I'm done.

(As in junior high and high school, I'm not anywhere near "alpha" enough for my choosing sides in the clique war to matter anyway! Sheesh. Give me a break, Juniper.)

However, I disagree with Greg's conclusion that the infighting "should" stop because it's distressing. First, I'm well aware that my own reaction to the infighting is far more of a reflection of the type of blogger that I am than it is of the way blogging "should" be. I'm hypersensitive, introverted, "serious", frequently immature and clinically depressed/manic-depressive. I thought about my decision to blog for six months before I began, and I proceeded because I'd braced myself for an ongoing barroom brawl instead of a Care Bears Tea Party. That's just the way I am and it is.

Second, DuWayne, you make the points I've been secretly dreading ever since I began to make friends through blogging. Allies can acrimoniously disagree with one another. Meanwhile, members of a group you belong to aren't guaranteed your alliance, nor are you guaranteed theirs. This is good, because it is part of having discussions that represent earnest attempts to answer questions in addition to friendships and enmity. It just isn't very comfortable. It's human to want to be right all the time, you know. And admitting that infighting is desirable in these terms is tantamount to inviting people you adore to open a can of whoop-ass on you when you'd rather be adored back.

This discussion is so meta that I've now gotten lost. Thanks a lot, Boyfriend.

D. C. said...

Lately, the "infighting" distresses me. I don't enjoy it.

May I invite you to sit this dance out with me?

Not all fights are our fights. I've been around (and, regrettably, in) enough pissing contests during my life that it doesn't bother me to leave this one to others.

Friendship is good. Loyalty is good. Love is awesome. DuWayne can take care of himself.

Have some popcorn.

Juniper Shoemaker said...

May I invite you to sit this dance out with me?

Your invitation is gratefully accepted, D.C. As are your reassurances and the offer of popcorn. :)

Comrade PhysioProf said...

a die-hard Lions fan

Dude, the Lions are not a baseball team.

DuWayne Brayton said...

Dude, the Lions are not a baseball team.

So someone mentioned to me via email...Meh, baseball, football, basketball - it's all the same to me. Mostly just crap that the notion of watching, makes me consider the joys that punching a firehydrant barefisted my have to offer...